A Proposed Plan

[Fly Swatter]

If you put practices in pub. Independent of the pub map. You would have no problem closing the practice arenas permanently. Why?

Because they wouldn't be closed. Practices are just in pub now. Off to the side of the pub map.

This idea is the best it brings everyone into 1 arena.

Merging practices in pub, while keeping practices in separate arenas, won't work. People will just practice in the separate arena. As well this merging of practices in pub destroys pub and turns it into a league game with sectioned off areas of the deathstar. Whats the point of having a whole deathstar if your going to wall off the sectors. Oh because in 12 vs 12 it all opens up? So we need 24 players to be free. When we can just achieve the same thing by having separate sectors elsewhere on the map, and having a free pub deathstar..

Again, your missing the point of your duties, which is to keep DSB cutting edge. A new map doesn't do this, ASSS does.

Keep DSB cutting edge? really? dsb is cutting edge now?

Falc you suggest 5 different idea everyday and cant or wont do any of the work urself. Last week you wanted me to move prac to lower pub map and remove the flags from the death star to make it work. Your over the place, most pll just skip over your posts. I sometime read them but really you need to decide on one thing and stick with it.

And you already know this because im a nice guy and keep you posted on whats going on. I just wanted (past tense now because you refuse to help) to do something new and shiny for xmas, then plan for a move to asss. 9 months time is what i told you. Run league here build a new pub on asss. But ur are an asshole that dont care. This is why i told you bring snake to the table or no deal. ofc other assholes had to fuck that up.. dsb is full of assholes that cant get along..

-Fly

[falconeer]

I never refused to do anything. Screenshot or didn't happen.

I never used the words "I refuse to help you" or that "I will absolutely not do it" I said I don't really want to be involved. That statement indicates how I feel, it doesn't state that I won't be involved. It states If I was involved I wouldn't enjoy destroying the deathstar just because you think it's a good idea. I stated very clearly that this is a bad idea and the wrong approach to bringing players back into DSB.

Whats wrong with Five different ideas? That's right I have one idea for the website, another idea to fix the forums and I have an idea for making a new tile set. As for pub and practice I've only ever suggested one idea. That doesn't mean I am not open to other ideas, but as I told you I am busy with school. And I am already working on three projects for DSB. As such you told me if I don't want to help you or if I can't help you, you will ask SK to do it. So my reply was that you should ask SK. I don't get what the problem is. Generally if you are a sysop you don't give one developer all the work to do. You spread out the tasks among the team. SK said he can do graphics, you said you would ask him. So ask him, and let him do it. As far as I'm aware he is not currently working on anything. It's a plus if you can get more people devving for DSB. Or are you mad that I'm the only person willing to work around here and I don't have time yet for your idea?

X-mas maps are the last things on my mind. We must have 10 different x-mas maps on file. You can load up an old one. It's not like people will play just because you added snow to the deathstar.

The goal here again is to move to ASSS.

I don't care if people don't like reading.

DSB IS cutting edge? Are you joking? Don't make me screenshot trench wars, and then do a comparison screenshot of DSB next to it. I will embarrass this zone. I can do that on every level, website, forums, in game, events. Trenchwars VS DSB. Comparison screenshots. Their events are like Mini Games. And the sad thing is DSB has way better settings. (Except for Jav in TW, which actually takes skill). Even Hyperspace is 1000 times more cutting edge than DSB. And it just has spidernl coding for it.

[Fly Swatter]

The plan for pub is well rooted and not a xmas theme as you know. Its about doing something for the zone, something that more then me want. Infact I hate bell flags and times games, would much rather go for something objective based, not timed ding game, but this is what the players and staff think is best in the here and now.

-Fly

[Tembest]

The plan for pub is well rooted and not a xmas theme as you know. Its about doing something for the zone, something that more then me want. Infact I hate bell flags and times games, would much rather go for something objective based, not timed ding game, but this is what the players and staff think is best in the here and now.

-Fly

Unfortunately the newbies will be completely lost in pub prac, and the veterans won't even like to play with them.
The important thing is that whatever our league is - pub would resemble that same winning incentive.

The problem with DSB is that newbies simply do not learn the game before they lost their interest...

We would need a relatively easy pub game that has a similar goal to league games, but it should not be forced on anyone.
We also need to give players a chance to fly around the map if they choose to.

I don't have a ready solution in mind, which makes it very difficult. Prac in pub is still far better than what we currently have because
currently there is no clear objective or it's too hard to figure out. The objective or goal of the game should be so easy that anyone
would understand it at first glance if they wanted to. That's why people actually play pub in TW, same in EG, even though the map
for pub is horrible in EG - far too big.

DSB has not once in pub seen anyone try to obtain 4 flags around a pole at ding... obviously something is wrong there.

[the_real_the_snake]

I've already converted dsb to ASSS once in 2005 with working bots.
It's a matter of minutes.
I can do it again, if I want to. Just need a new leadership in the zone that aint scared of change, and is not reminiscence of any legacy.

[jim the chin]

Unfortunately the newbies will be completely lost in pub prac, and the veterans won't even like to play with them.
The important thing is that whatever our league is - pub would resemble that same winning incentive.

The problem with DSB is that newbies simply do not learn the game before they lost their interest...

We would need a relatively easy pub game that has a similar goal to league games, but it should not be forced on anyone.
We also need to give players a chance to fly around the map if they choose to.

I don't have a ready solution in mind, which makes it very difficult. Prac in pub is still far better than what we currently have because
currently there is no clear objective or it's too hard to figure out. The objective or goal of the game should be so easy that anyone
would understand it at first glance if they wanted to. That's why people actually play pub in TW, same in EG, even though the map
for pub is horrible in EG - far too big.

DSB has not once in pub seen anyone try to obtain 4 flags around a pole at ding... obviously something is wrong there.

Everything you've said is right on the mark.

People have been saying the same thing for years. Pub needs a purpose, an objective, something to win. How long does it take the people in charge to figure this out and make one? I'm seeing new maps... with flags in different places and a soccer ball thrown in, but nothing resembling a worthwhile and achievable objective. I think the TW sets are fucking awful, but the game has a flag and a countdown, which makes it fun.

The only pub game we've had in recent times that worked is SS>Morikahn's flag capture game, where if you capture and hold a flag-pole for a minute, it is closed off and "won" for the duration of the game. Once the 8 designated flag-poles have been conquered, the game is over and points/rewards/tokens or whatever are distributed.

For some reason Entropy didn't like the game, and Morikahn gave up developing the bot any further. Entropy invited me to submit my improvements to the concept and the bot, and claimed that he would build the bot. My improved concept included changing it from individual flag-poles to sectors (resembling league), so essentially, the bot allocates a sector, and the teams fight over it until the sector has been held by one team for a minute. Then, the next sector is fought over. A winning team needs 3 conquered sectors.

Anyway, I created the pictures (LVZ) for the sector allocation (to show newbs where the action is), I altered the map accordingly, I wrote all the plans for how the bot should work (that Ent requested), but he did nothing. As I have no idea how to create bots, the whole thing fell apart.

[falconeer]

It was basically me and Jim who made the Babl Maps.

Ent sat on that for a long time too. And we still dont have all the bases on 1 map, and an automated warp system to start a game in a specific base. It's so easy to do I could do that. I could get the code from the pulse event, and change all the coordinates to fit babl. Why ent couldn't do this to make the league more professional? I have no idea.

Me and Greenish did a lot for the zone too. Green enjoyed working with me, and we teamed up a lot. I've no doubt that he would come back and code a little bit on the side if I asked him to.

Pub does need a goal, But don't ignore the part in Tembest post that says it should be a free deathstar. I want pub to have a goal, but not to be sectioned off and require 12 vs 12 to be free. For this to happen, we can give pub a goal. And have practices in the same arena but elsewhere on the map. This way we can close the practice arenas down and everyone can be in one arena. Then we can make it so people who play pub are eligible to practice. As well we can give squads incentives, improve the practice bot etc.

[jim the chin]

Yes, pub doesn't need bits sectioned off, but it does need achievable goals, such as capturing all the flags in a sector and holding them for a period of time. That would appeal to praccers, and would effectively replicate prac games in the pub arena for those who choose to take part. The difference would be that anyone can join in for 2v2 or 12v12, and people would be free to fly around the rest of the map without taking part if they so wish.

If the suggestion is that we have two maps in pub, one for prac and one for pub newbs, then that is a horrendous idea IMO. You'd just be dividing people in the pub arena instead of across multiple arenas. It won't magically make the pub game make active; people will be even more inclined to abandon the pub game when there's enough for a prac; and newbs will be lost when a bunch of players decide to play on the prac part of the map.

Like Temb said "We need a relatively easy pub game that has a similar goal to league games". In other words, we need something that attracts praccers into pub by creating a game that resembles what they enjoy, but is easier for newbs to play in, and has an added objective beyond what pracs offer (such as giving a jackpot/tokens to whoever wins the most out of the 4 sectors - if it's 2-2 then do a final random sector).

[falconeer]

We've got no noobs.

The idea is to get all the people in the practice arenas into the pub arena. They won't play pub if practice arenas still exist. And they won't play pub if you immediately take away practice arenas and make pub into a practice/league game. For one this ruins pub and makes it into league when considering the proposed idea by Beer and Fly. And two their ideas still have practice arenas available, which means no one will enter pub still. The idea is to bring everyone into one arena.

• People will play pub because you need to play in order to type ?next to get you on queue for a practice.
• If you are in spec ?next doesn't work.
• You also need a certain amount of weekly pub hours to qualify you for practice.
• People won't leave pub. There will already be 3vs3 in east. So they will play pub while they wait.
• When the east practice is over, they will be in line to play east next
• All that aside that's everyone in the same arena, so some people are bound to get into the pub game regardless of who leaves for practice especially if you set up some meaningful game play in pub that is goal oriented.
• Noobs won't be left in the dust because they can also enter the practice with everyone else, provided they typed ?next and are next in line on the queue. (Much like hockey zone).
• As such, the bot will keep players with low ratings on opposite teams, so bad players won't be on the same teams. So noobs can't ruin a practice. And likewise the best players will be on opposing teams.

[jim the chin]

We've got no noobs.

I'm sure plenty of newbs come into DSB, see it's empty, and leave. Plenty come from TW too.

As for the rest of your post. I agree it could work.

What I see happening is the lazy option though. This merger will be done, but the pub game won't be changed at all. The most important thing is to change the pub-game to some kind of "conquer a sector by holding all the flags in it for x-amount of time" idea. That's similar enough to league to be workable. Unfortunately, that will take the most effort. Moving pracs into pub is probably more monkey-work than anything.