Re-Organizing DSB
Moderators: Beer Hunter, Tembest, Entr0py
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
The Averages are wrong. Ent's comparing the average of 1000 games west to the average of 49,000 games east. After 2011 the population dropped to 50 people. Nothing determines how many kills I can get in a sector as proven with 45c's 44 kills in West. The power of averages works when you have data, such as 50k practices. East is accurate. West, and south, and north cannot be compared at all because the gaps in data is huge between all of them. None of them should be compared to east most of all.
Tell me, whats the average of East if you use the first 1000 practices? Is it 16 like west? or is it still 21?
Why doesn't Ent make a table of East averages. Is it because my point will be proven?
1000 data entries from 2010 in order.
2000 data entries
3000 data entries
10,000 data entries
20,000 data entries
30,000 data entries
40,000 data entries
Do them all in order, average the kills, and lets watch the average spike up and down? If it stays the same, giving you the benefit of the doubt of not cheating. Then you've proven the averages are the same no matter the data entries. But I suspect the kill average will be smaller than 21, and increase with more data.
Tell me, whats the average of East if you use the first 1000 practices? Is it 16 like west? or is it still 21?
Why doesn't Ent make a table of East averages. Is it because my point will be proven?
1000 data entries from 2010 in order.
2000 data entries
3000 data entries
10,000 data entries
20,000 data entries
30,000 data entries
40,000 data entries
Do them all in order, average the kills, and lets watch the average spike up and down? If it stays the same, giving you the benefit of the doubt of not cheating. Then you've proven the averages are the same no matter the data entries. But I suspect the kill average will be smaller than 21, and increase with more data.
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Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Ent could do that, though I think an average from a sample of 1000 won't change much if you increase the sample size to 50000.
There's also a reason for the averages being higher in some sectors. If you push 3 people into a small space (east) then they'll get more kills between them. That doesn't necessarily make one of them MVP. If it's an even fight, they won't be MVP; but there's still a greater chance of them getting MVP in that sector. Any of us who've looked at MVP stats down the years will know that most come from east. That's what averages are about. Extreme cases will always happen though.
Say you're playing upper west or lower west against someone who is much worse than you, you'll effectively be dueling them for the whole game. For example, I played Gurliver in west back when he was a complete newb and went 81-27 I think. That made me the highest points scorer on my team. It also allowed me to attach in north to help lock that sector, bringing even more kills.
In general, you can MVP in any sector if you're playing against bad opponents. So citing individual cases is pointless. All I know is you can probably trust the averages, because if there's more space in a sector, there's more time spent flying between the different flag poles, and less time spent fighting. Even when I was MVP in west, 81-27 meant I only had 108 battles. Many east players gets scores around 70-50 if they win. They wouldn't be MVP over me, but they would have had 120 battles. If they'd had opponents that were as easy as mine, they might have gone 90-30 and got the MVP.
There's also a reason for the averages being higher in some sectors. If you push 3 people into a small space (east) then they'll get more kills between them. That doesn't necessarily make one of them MVP. If it's an even fight, they won't be MVP; but there's still a greater chance of them getting MVP in that sector. Any of us who've looked at MVP stats down the years will know that most come from east. That's what averages are about. Extreme cases will always happen though.
Say you're playing upper west or lower west against someone who is much worse than you, you'll effectively be dueling them for the whole game. For example, I played Gurliver in west back when he was a complete newb and went 81-27 I think. That made me the highest points scorer on my team. It also allowed me to attach in north to help lock that sector, bringing even more kills.
In general, you can MVP in any sector if you're playing against bad opponents. So citing individual cases is pointless. All I know is you can probably trust the averages, because if there's more space in a sector, there's more time spent flying between the different flag poles, and less time spent fighting. Even when I was MVP in west, 81-27 meant I only had 108 battles. Many east players gets scores around 70-50 if they win. They wouldn't be MVP over me, but they would have had 120 battles. If they'd had opponents that were as easy as mine, they might have gone 90-30 and got the MVP.
Please delete this account. I want nothing to do with this place any more.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
It's not about space, 2 vs 2 happens everywhere especially in east. You rarely get a 3vs3 going, because for one, the third player is already dead. 2 vs 2 lower south. 2 vs 2 RN, and 2 vs 2 LN. There is no big difference between sectors, the space isn't different in west than it is south or North, it's all about the same space. And in fact South is the biggest sector with it's own duel scenario. All that matters is the play-style of the player, their personality, that's all that affects kills. If I'm going to chase an enemy down, he will turn and fight. If I run he will chase and we will never fight.
Prove East has a majority of MVPs, get the stats from league.nu, and show me the MVP was east for 60% of games. Even if it was, where was the MVP the other 40%? In west? I bet you MVP is almost evenly distributed, and that West saw the majority of MVPs. I've never seen a west player on the bottom of list, they were always top 3 in league. I'll check out league MVPs later. A bit busy over the holidays..
Prove East has a majority of MVPs, get the stats from league.nu, and show me the MVP was east for 60% of games. Even if it was, where was the MVP the other 40%? In west? I bet you MVP is almost evenly distributed, and that West saw the majority of MVPs. I've never seen a west player on the bottom of list, they were always top 3 in league. I'll check out league MVPs later. A bit busy over the holidays..
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Could you Ent change the value to 90 and 3 (bonus)? I know how to change base value but I'm not sure how to change the bonus.
I am extremely busy for a couple of weeks more so I cannot test the gameplay myself, but I'm sure others will. Perhaps it would be a good idea to announce
it somewhere as well so people actually there has been a change.
Edit: Oh and, I'll try to look up for the discussion for you Sever, but not today.
I am extremely busy for a couple of weeks more so I cannot test the gameplay myself, but I'm sure others will. Perhaps it would be a good idea to announce
it somewhere as well so people actually there has been a change.
Edit: Oh and, I'll try to look up for the discussion for you Sever, but not today.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Yeah, I'll try to get to it later this week. I'll show BH/Eridu how to do it for the future, too.Tembest wrote:Could you Ent change the value to 90 and 3 (bonus)?
That's a legit thing to do. Learn about how averages work.falconeer wrote:The Averages are wrong. Ent's comparing the average of 1000 games west to the average of 49,000 games east.
Here you go. Averages for all sectors, in groups of 1000 player match entries, in order by date played. This includes the average for the current batch of 1000 player match entries, as well as the running average for the cumulative amount to that point.falconeer wrote:Tell me, whats the average of East if you use the first 1000 practices? Is it 16 like west? or is it still 21?
Why doesn't Ent make a table of East averages. Is it because my point will be proven?
1000 data entries from 2010 in order.
2000 data entries
3000 data entries
10,000 data entries
20,000 data entries
30,000 data entries
40,000 data entries
Do them all in order, average the kills, and lets watch the average spike up and down? If it stays the same, giving you the benefit of the doubt of not cheating. Then you've proven the averages are the same no matter the data entries. But I suspect the kill average will be smaller than 21, and increase with more data.
Code: Select all
East:
Group Group Count Cumulative Count Group Average Running Average
1 1000 1000 21.52177287 21.52177287
2 1000 2000 22.06927528 21.79552408
3 1000 3000 21.63997357 21.74367391
4 1000 4000 22.52762958 21.93966283
5 1000 5000 21.99766312 21.95126288
6 1000 6000 22.43791477 22.03237153
7 1000 7000 22.89823217 22.15606591
8 1000 8000 22.33407107 22.17831655
9 1000 9000 21.93317269 22.15107835
10 1000 10000 21.45833799 22.08180431
11 1000 11000 22.04474555 22.07843533
12 1000 12000 21.96261862 22.06878394
13 1000 13000 20.90978313 21.97963003
14 1000 14000 21.48318347 21.94416956
15 1000 15000 21.58327045 21.92010962
16 1000 16000 21.39842016 21.88750403
17 1000 17000 20.78741086 21.82279267
18 1000 18000 21.60649204 21.81077597
19 1000 19000 21.9061503 21.81579567
20 1000 20000 21.99757255 21.82488451
21 1000 21000 21.53128761 21.81090371
22 1000 22000 21.56964277 21.7999373
23 1000 23000 21.3722529 21.78134233
24 1000 24000 21.28512635 21.76066666
25 1000 25000 21.29312506 21.741965
26 1000 26000 20.9278721 21.71065373
27 1000 27000 21.08981771 21.68765981
28 1000 28000 20.6986842 21.65233925
29 1000 29000 20.88992888 21.62604924
30 1000 30000 21.07341105 21.60762796
31 1000 31000 21.28387125 21.5971842
32 1000 32000 21.17020284 21.58384103
33 1000 33000 21.07080266 21.56829441
34 1000 34000 20.5644988 21.53877101
35 1000 35000 20.82874564 21.51848457
36 1000 36000 21.12130817 21.5074519
37 1000 37000 20.98577684 21.49335257
38 1000 38000 20.92899908 21.47850116
39 1000 39000 20.89705327 21.46359224
40 1000 40000 19.23854168 21.40796598
41 1000 41000 21.03410178 21.39884734
42 1000 42000 20.44682134 21.37618005
43 1000 43000 20.67201101 21.35980403
44 1000 44000 20.12775117 21.33180283
45 1000 45000 19.81547679 21.29810669
46 1000 46000 19.56845862 21.26050565
47 1000 47000 19.3075406 21.2189532
48 1000 48000 19.56247489 21.18444324
49 1000 49000 20.01444643 21.16056575
50 649 49649 19.44622083 21.13815624
North:
Group Group Count Cumulative Count Group Average Running Average
1 1000 1000 21.05338306 21.05338306
2 1000 2000 20.939374 20.99637853
3 1000 3000 21.22748723 21.07341476
4 1000 4000 20.88183903 21.02552083
5 1000 5000 21.07361803 21.03514027
6 1000 6000 19.85103419 20.83778926
7 1000 7000 19.31846901 20.62074351
8 1000 8000 19.57260282 20.48972592
9 1000 9000 19.60056077 20.39092979
10 1000 10000 19.6981418 20.32165099
11 1000 11000 18.78470358 20.1819285
12 592 11592 19.85905092 20.16543924
South:
Group Group Count Cumulative Count Group Average Running Average
1 1000 1000 18.51185353 18.51185353
2 1000 2000 18.28303994 18.39744674
3 602 2602 18.5670407 18.43668408
West:
Group Group Count Cumulative Count Group Average Running Average
1 1000 1000 16.43306507 16.43306507
2 173 1173 18.77182159 16.77799676
What I see is that the averages remain pretty consistent from the very beginning, with all sectors having a different average. The one trend I DO see is that in east and north, the kill averages were increasing for the first few groups, before falling linearly with all groups thereafter. I'd wager that this is due to most of the best players stopping praccing, reducing the kill average accordingly.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Actually, space has a huge effect. The easiest way to see this is to consider an extreme example - suppose you put a 3v3 on a totally empty map, position them randomly, and tell them to duke it out for 20 minutes. I guarantee you that there will be far fewer kills over that 20 minutes in that scenario than if you were to place the 3v3 in south, and again fewer in south than if you were to place the 3v3 in east, and again fewer in east than if you were to place the 3v3 in BAB. It takes time to chase and kill an enemy, and what we're really talking here is kills per minute.falconeer wrote:It's not about space, 2 vs 2 happens everywhere especially in east.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Looks good, We need more West and South data =/
Wish people would practice south more.
Basically your idea of what happened to north implies good players change the average by 2. That's why West at 19 isn't such a bad idea. It's very possible for west or south to have a 19 kill average. Every sector at 19 was a good idea. East and North even have 19 as some of their kill averages.
I said it's not about space. Which means space has an effect, just not a big one. Space doesn't have a big enough effect to reduce kill averages in west to 16. What has more of an effect is if all the good players don't play west. A bigger effect is when we only have 1129 practice entries. Etc. Like I said 2 vs 2 happens everywhere, and its not from across sectors. Tons of 2 vs 2 happening at the core flags for example. One of the tightest spaces in the deathstar. Your extreme example has nothing to do with the deathstar. Which shows between sectors the space is not all that different. And south is the biggest sector, yet it has a higher kill average.
Your argument is that its kill based on minute. But flags bring players together to kill. This is true for all sectors. Whats also true for all sectors is that if you put me LN, South, or Even east, I could run indefinitely, use my specs to avoid death, attach to a teammate not to engage enemy. Especially LN, South and West I can run for the whole 20 minutes and not die. Will I do this? No. Because IN EVERY sector, flags bring players together. We fight for core west flags, we fight for LN flags, we fight for south flags. You can't even say it takes me forever to fly to the flag, because we have portals. This argument on space is very very weak. If all you want to do is flag touch, you'll have no engagement, but if you want to bell flag, you need to kill, have the advantage/upper hand, lock out the sector, defend the flags you have, you have to fight.
Wish people would practice south more.
Basically your idea of what happened to north implies good players change the average by 2. That's why West at 19 isn't such a bad idea. It's very possible for west or south to have a 19 kill average. Every sector at 19 was a good idea. East and North even have 19 as some of their kill averages.
I said it's not about space. Which means space has an effect, just not a big one. Space doesn't have a big enough effect to reduce kill averages in west to 16. What has more of an effect is if all the good players don't play west. A bigger effect is when we only have 1129 practice entries. Etc. Like I said 2 vs 2 happens everywhere, and its not from across sectors. Tons of 2 vs 2 happening at the core flags for example. One of the tightest spaces in the deathstar. Your extreme example has nothing to do with the deathstar. Which shows between sectors the space is not all that different. And south is the biggest sector, yet it has a higher kill average.
Your argument is that its kill based on minute. But flags bring players together to kill. This is true for all sectors. Whats also true for all sectors is that if you put me LN, South, or Even east, I could run indefinitely, use my specs to avoid death, attach to a teammate not to engage enemy. Especially LN, South and West I can run for the whole 20 minutes and not die. Will I do this? No. Because IN EVERY sector, flags bring players together. We fight for core west flags, we fight for LN flags, we fight for south flags. You can't even say it takes me forever to fly to the flag, because we have portals. This argument on space is very very weak. If all you want to do is flag touch, you'll have no engagement, but if you want to bell flag, you need to kill, have the advantage/upper hand, lock out the sector, defend the flags you have, you have to fight.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
I know actually how to change the base kill value but I'm unsure of the bonus.Entr0py wrote:Yeah, I'll try to get to it later this week. I'll show BH/Eridu how to do it for the future, too.
Is the kill bonus what bot calls death bonus?
DSB-PracBo> Death Bonus: 5
If it is, I can change it, no problem.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
Not sure - that might actually be something else. I'll have to look at it. But just changing the values is not a good idea - first I need to create the new league for these new game settings - Indi League 2 or something, and I need to require registration. It will take ~20 minutes to set up. I'll try to do it tonight.Tembest wrote:I know actually how to change the base kill value but I'm unsure of the bonus.Entr0py wrote:Yeah, I'll try to get to it later this week. I'll show BH/Eridu how to do it for the future, too.
Is the kill bonus what bot calls death bonus?
DSB-PracBo> Death Bonus: 5
If it is, I can change it, no problem.
Re: Re-Organizing DSB
I was hoping we could actually test those settings for a while instead of assuming they will work fine.
Once a little testing has been done, reset all lifetime stats, and then we can start a new league, called League 1 as Sever proposed.
Once a little testing has been done, reset all lifetime stats, and then we can start a new league, called League 1 as Sever proposed.