Re-Organizing DSB

[Tembest]

And as a final effort.. Here's how 80 points would work.

Team 1 wins flags 12:8 but loses kills 70-80 in east.
Team 1 kill points = 5600
Team 1 kill bonus = 3500
Team 1 flag dings = 5400
Team 2 kill points = 6400
Team 2 kill bonus = 4000
Team 2 flag dings = 3600
SCORE: Team 1 wins by 14500 - 14000.

60 kills points:

Team 1 wins flags 12:8 but loses kills 70-80 in east.
Team 1 kill points = 4200
Team 1 kill bonus = 3500
Team 1 flag dings = 5400
Team 2 kill points = 4800
Team 2 kill bonus = 4000
Team 2 flag dings = 3600
SCORE: Team 1 wins by 13100 - 12400.

[jim the chin]

I would assume the flags held at other times would be 10-10 unless given a reason to believe otherwise.
It's the only assumption we can have if we want an unbiased calculation... That's why I'm calling it silly. And the truth is quite funny as well because often
the team winning bell flags is the "tubing" team, which is actually the team that holds most of the time only 8 flags during the prac. So it's turned around.
Anyhow... as we cannot make such assumptions... it needs to be considered 10-10.

If you win flags 12-8 at every ding, then why would every other second of the match have flags at 10-10? Do you think they reset to 10-10 immediately after a ding or something? The flags being held at dings will (for the most part) reflect the average flags being held over the course of the game. Since the entirety of your three posts are based on the supposition that flag averages will be completely independent of flag dings, then there really is nothing more to be said. At least until you understand what I'm saying in this very short post.

[Tembest]

I would assume the flags held at other times would be 10-10 unless given a reason to believe otherwise.
It's the only assumption we can have if we want an unbiased calculation... That's why I'm calling it silly. And the truth is quite funny as well because often
the team winning bell flags is the "tubing" team, which is actually the team that holds most of the time only 8 flags during the prac. So it's turned around.
Anyhow... as we cannot make such assumptions... it needs to be considered 10-10.

If you win flags 12-8 at every ding, then why would every other second of the match have flags at 10-10? Do you think they reset to 10-10 immediately after a ding or something? The flags being held at dings will (for the most part) reflect the average flags being held over the course of the game. Since the entirety of your three posts are based on the supposition that flag averages will be completely independent of flag dings, then there really is nothing more to be said. At least until you understand what I'm saying in this very short post.

What you're making is an assumption, just as mine... which I have been telling you from the beginning NOT to include the BONUS into the calculations.
For ***** sake...

Edit: Oh and I explained you perfectly why actually often the team winning BF's in east has less than 10 flags on average during the game.

If you want to include the Bonus, then it can be considered nothing but 10-10 because it is not related to Bell flags in any way.
Have you ever even looked at the flag count at 3 seconds prior to dings? It can change from 4 flags held to 12 at ding, and it's not even that rare.

[falconeer]

Whoever holds 1.6 more flags at ding. Will likely have more kills anyway. And a team that locks the other out of east, is almost guaranteed more kills. So it doesn't really matter that you need 10 kills to offset 1.6 flags at ding for a whole 20 minutes. In a lock out If the other team has the flags you will be dying a lot to get them. It's not as if you can out kill for flags. This is a flag game, the objective is flags at ding. Kills are secondary. Assists likely are third, and should be worth half a kill. Since you could have done all the damage, and someone took the kill with 1 bullet. Ratio is fourth, and it was never important, but it factors in because death points go to other team? So you sort of want less deaths and more kills, and hence a good ratio. Flag touches are useless, and just an interesting statistic. Unless someone can tell me how they factor into skill or points. They are just a prerequisite to good bell flagging.

Killing at the ding, just need to be more precise. If I kill someone and get a flag. That is a lot of effort. If I kill someone and then fly across east and touch a flag, that doesn't count. The kill and flag have to be within 2 seconds of the ding. And it has to be one person who killed, and then flagged. Not Tembest made a kill, and then I got a bell flag. That shouldn't count towards kill points (Not saying it does).

[Tembest]

I'm watching a prac currently and the flags jump from 20 hold to 8. One team got locked out right after ding, soon the other team had 20 flags.
It took them a minute to get in and yet they got 11 at ding. My point is... you cannot make assumptions and neither can I.

Hence, it is 10-10 or we do not include it in the calculations.

I'll turn it around for you. I'll end this discussion until you understand what I'm saying.

[jim the chin]

I would assume the flags held at other times would be 10-10 unless given a reason to believe otherwise.
It's the only assumption we can have if we want an unbiased calculation... That's why I'm calling it silly. And the truth is quite funny as well because often
the team winning bell flags is the "tubing" team, which is actually the team that holds most of the time only 8 flags during the prac. So it's turned around.
Anyhow... as we cannot make such assumptions... it needs to be considered 10-10.

If you win flags 12-8 at every ding, then why would every other second of the match have flags at 10-10? Do you think they reset to 10-10 immediately after a ding or something? The flags being held at dings will (for the most part) reflect the average flags being held over the course of the game. Since the entirety of your three posts are based on the supposition that flag averages will be completely independent of flag dings, then there really is nothing more to be said. At least until you understand what I'm saying in this very short post.

What you're making is an assumption, just as mine... which I have been telling you from the beginning NOT to include the BONUS into the calculations.
For ***** sake...

Ok, then I'll prove that the "assumption" I've made is pretty accurate.

Take a look at the sector league scores. They don't include a kill bonus, but they do tell us what we need to know: the flag averages and the bell flag averages. You'll see that the two are comparable. From http://forums.deathstarbattle.com/viewt ... ?f=3&t=520

Match 1:
Bell Flag Averages Freq 0: 12.4, Freq 1: 7.6
Overall Flag Averages Freq 0: 12.1, Freq 1: 7.3

Match 2:
Bell Flag Averages Red Hawks: 14.8, Roughriders: 9.2
Overall Flag Averages Red Hawks: 12.9, Roughriders: 10.5

Match 3:
Bell Flag Averages Freq 0: 7.6, Freq 1: 15.3
Overall Flag Averages Freq 0: 7.7, Freq 1: 15.9

Match 4:
Bell Flag Averages Renegades: 8.6, Everglaze: 11.3
Overall Flag Averages Renegades: 8.2, Everglaze: 11.3

Match 5:
Bell Flag Averages Left0vers: 16.3, LEGO: 3.6
Overall Flag Averages Left0vers: 14.9, LEGO: 4.5

Match 6:
Bell Flag Averages LEGO: 17.1, Left0vers: 6.9
Overall Flag Averages LEGO: 16.5, Left0vers: 7.0

Match 7:
Bell Flag Averages Red Hawks: 11.5, Renegades: 8.4
Overall Flag Averages Red Hawks: 11.1, Renegades: 8.2

Match 8:
Bell Flag Averages Renegades: 7.3, Red Hawks: 24.7
Overall Flag Averages Renegades: 7.7, Red Hawks: 23.7

Match 9:
Bell Flag Averages Left0vers: 18.7, Everglaze: 13.2
Overall Flag Averages Left0vers: 18.9, Everglaze: 12.7

Match 10:
Bell Flag Averages Left0vers: 17.1, Everglaze: 6.9
Overall Flag Averages Left0vers: 17.8, Everglaze: 5.8

Need I go on? That's the first 10 matches. The overall flag averages don't even out like you said. They follow the bell flag averages very closely. I made an accurate, common sense assumption in my calculations. Are you still going to call it "silly"? Do you finally understand this, or can I check myself out of this pointless time-consuming conversation?

[Tembest]

Whoever holds 1.6 more flags at ding. Will likely have more kills anyway. And a team that locks the other out of east, is almost guaranteed more kills. So it doesn't really matter that you need 10 kills to offset 1.6 flags at ding for a whole 20 minutes. In a lock out If the other team has the flags you will be dying a lot to get them. It's not as if you can out kill for flags. This is a flag game, the objective is flags at ding. Kills are secondary. Assists likely are third, and should be worth half a kill. Since you could have done all the damage, and someone took the kill with 1 bullet. Ratio is fourth, and it was never important, but it factors in because death points go to other team? So you sort of want less deaths and more kills, and hence a good ratio. Flag touches are useless, and just an interesting statistic. Unless someone can tell me how they factor into skill or points. They are just a prerequisite to good bell flagging.

Killing at the ding, just need to be more precise. If I kill someone and get a flag. That is a lot of effort. If I kill someone and then fly across east and touch a flag, that doesn't count. The kill and flag have to be within 2 seconds of the ding. And it has to be one person who killed, and then flagged. Not Tembest made a kill, and then I got a bell flag. That shouldn't count towards kill points (Not saying it does).

You're having completely your own discussion here as Sever and I are simply discussing about how much a kill should be worth.
You're talking about what statistics make a good player. I don't think anyone agrees with you. I can get >4 bell flags and a positive ratio in every single
prac I play but my team would lose. Does that make me a good player? Hell no..

I think you're the only one around who thinks wins do not matter.

[falconeer]

Flag averages don't match Bell flag averages.

16 flag average and 14 flag average is a big difference. You are thinking that .5 doesn't matter but it makes a difference. And that isn't a .5 difference even. It's a 2.0 difference. (For example match 2, or match 5)

In the case where flag average are higher it means the team can't bell flag. They just run around touching flags. And get lucky with the bell flags. This would be more apparent if it was 181st Tie. A more newbie squad.

In the case where flag averages are lower than Bell flag averages. It means the players don't often flag touch. They focus on killing, and they run to flags at the bell and HAVE a much better use of their time. More efficient squad.

Actually Tembest I was agreeing with you. And talking about points for kills at ding. So no my conversation ties in with yours.

Wins don't matter for individual skill. If my team loses, it doesn't make me a bad player, it makes my team worse than the other team. You are retarded if you think otherwise. I've gotten 25-30 with MOST bell flags while my team got 10-35 records vs Vanish and Big-f in east. Suddenly I'm a bad player because they were stacked and I had eridu? Give me a break, come at me with some logic if you want to prove I'm wrong. I should be rated vs. the performance of my team, as well as the against the other team. If I was a clear MVP in my losing team, that speaks for some sort of individual skill. Not all 5 second made teams are going to be pros and win. I meet some guy today, he joins my east team, we lose, and suddenly I'm a bad player because I never played with this jerk off before? Give me another break. Meanwhile Vanish plays with the same people 5 years straight and in leagues, and he suddenly has more skill? Not likely. His team is well made and coordinated, that's all it means.

Look in soccer, best player George Hagi, for Romania, easily comparable to maradonna, ronaldo, mesi. Romania never won, it doesn't make him a shit player. He is one of the gods of soccer.

[Tembest]

First of all, you're making an assumption again. You assume people play in the same way in a league game that does not contain a kill bonus and a league
game that contains a kill bonus.

Regardless, even if statistics supported your belief, you cannot make an assumption the team winning bell flags will win flags on average.

I could just as well dig you the ridiculous example where... Team 1 had MORE BF's AND MORE KILLS, and lost the prac because of flags held at other times.

As I've stated many times, it would make things a lot easier if we removed the kill bonus.

Anyhow, you are the only person who has at any moment even suggested a number above 100. Also that should give you some kind of a hint.

Nobody in the original discussion like a year ago suggested anything remotely that high except for north where 100 was viewed as the highest possible.

So, so far you are the only person supporting a kill value as high as 120, and I seriously cannot understand why. It makes Bell Flags meaningless.
Bell flags would account to roughly 1/5 of the total score. ONE FIFTH WITH 120 points... As Falc said, it's still supposed to be a flagging game.

[Tembest]

Wins don't matter for individual skill. If my team loses, it doesn't make me a bad player, it makes my team worse than the other team. You are retarded if you think otherwise. I've gotten 25-30 with MOST bell flags while my team got 10-35 records vs Vanish and Big-f in east. Suddenly I'm a bad player because they were stacked and I had eridu? Give me a break, come at me with some logic if you want to prove I'm wrong. I should be rated vs. the performance of my team, as well as the against the other team. If I was a clear MVP in my losing team, that speaks for some sort of individual skill. Not all 5 second made teams are going to be pros and win. I meet some guy today, he joins my east team, we lose, and suddenly I'm a bad player because I never played with this jerk off before? Give me another break. Meanwhile Vanish plays with the same people 5 years straight and in leagues, and he suddenly has more skill? Not likely. His team is well made and coordinated, that's all it means.

Look in soccer, best player George Hagi, for Romania, easily comparable to maradonna, ronaldo, mesi. Romania never won, it doesn't make him a shit player. He is one of the gods of soccer.

I do understand your point, but I'll explain you why we have wins there. Two simple cases.
Tembest can even on purpose hold 4-6 bf's per prac and stay positive and on purpose let his team lose. Not that hard, just lame in tube.
That behaviour would be rewarded without wins.

Tembest can play with two TW players who end up 1-30 with 0 bell flags, while I end up 20-10 by not even trying to get in.
This behaviour would be rewarded.

The problem is that individual statistics enough are not alone. You wasting a repeller to prevent enemy from getting into east would not be rewarded
anymore. Just save it for yourself for bf's or a kill. Unfortunately, nobody has come up with a system that would be able to rate players without adding
the win factor. I can promise you that if you manage to create one that cannot be extremely easy abused, eg. in ways mentioned above, we can give it a go.

Edit: The best attempts is Ent's system once we disallow smurfs. Then the bot gives an estimation of the score and if you then do well, you will be rewarded,
even if you lose.