Re-Organizing DSB

[jim the chin]

Please state your opinion and I will take it into consideration without any
counter arguments.

So are you deciding what happens with this?

Basically, you want to double the value of bell flags in the game. The tube-whoring would become intolerable in my opinion. It would be unplayable; for me at least. I can flag as well as anyone else, but I would find it too boring. Perhaps others would enjoy that type of game.

[Tembest]

Please state your opinion and I will take it into consideration without any
counter arguments.

So are you deciding what happens with this?

Basically, you want to double the value of bell flags in the game. The tube-whoring would become intolerable in my opinion. It would be unplayable; for me at least. I can flag as well as anyone else, but I would find it too boring. Perhaps others would enjoy that type of game.

I'm not deciding on anything alone... and considering I play very seldom, I view your or any other active player's opinion more important than mine. So, I will not decide on
anything but rather try to find out what would be the solution most players approve of.

For god sake. How many times do I need to tell you that the current system has not been designed for 3vs3 and is not there on purpose.

In either of the examples I posted, bell flags are worth the same as in 6 vs 6, but worth less than in any other league ever.

I take it you have hated absolutely every single league we have had then, and league has always been unplayable for you, because that is exactly what you are saying.

[jim the chin]

For god sake. How many times do I need to tell you that the current system has not been designed for 3vs3 and is not there on purpose.

In either of the examples I posted, bell flags are worth the same as in 6 vs 6, but worth less than in any other league ever.

Then to save you from saying it again, I'll tell you that it makes no difference what it was originally designed for. If it was designed for 6v6, that doesn't mean it was ideal for 6v6. Yes, a few people might have said "this works great", but you'll get that for any idea. Regardless, if it was ideal for 6v6 however many years ago, that doesn't mean it will be today.

I take it you have hated absolutely every single league we have had then, and league has always been unplayable for you, because that is exactly what you are saying.

The league has changed a lot, with many different scoring systems. Some were good, some were bad. The more the bell flags are emphasized, the more the game gets focused around tube-whoring and burning all your specials at the ding.

I play pracs most weeks. I can tell you that I've never heard anyone say something like "the scores here are messed up" in reference to the kill:flag points. People are playing the pracs, accepting the results, and coming back for more. The scoring system can be improved, but you're suggesting we double the value of bell flags on the basis of a theory that made sense to you a year or two ago. Implementing your theory in the current community of praccers may piss off more people than it pleases.

[Tembest]

I play pracs most weeks. I can tell you that I've never heard anyone say something like "the scores here are messed up" in reference to the kill:flag points. People are playing the pracs, accepting the results, and coming back for more. The scoring system can be improved, but you're suggesting we double the value of bell flags on the basis of a theory that made sense to you a year or two ago. Implementing your theory in the current community of praccers may piss off more people than it pleases.

I don't know if you pracced when the 150 point kills appeared in prac arena. People complained about it on forums, in game, everywhere for a couple of months.
Perhaps you don't remember or you were inactive as you have occasionally been.

I am not surprised people have quit complaining as there has been no change in almost two years. Not to mention that Ent disappeared, which caused people to think we
do not have access to bots. The last time we discussed this matter (Ent was gone), no one stated they knew how to fix the value. Even high Staff members, such as
Beer, told me I should change the value if I knew how. Anyway, point being, it doesn't surprise me people have quit complaining when no change occurred during the first
few months they complained about the issue.

Nonetheless, perhaps you are correct, and I should approach people again and ask for their opinions today. I am basing my words on about 15-20 players' voice a year or two ago and
4 players recent opinion (excl. you and me). Nevertheless, the people who have bothered to discuss the matter with me, have all agreed kills are overvalued.

[jim the chin]

Nevertheless, the people who have bothered to discuss the matter with me, have all agreed kills are overvalued.

And I agree too. It's just a matter of "how low do you go". Cutting the kill points in half (from 150 -> 75) would be too much in my opinion. Somewhere between 100 and 120 seems like the best option to me.

I think most people prefer a slight focus on kills because it's more fun chasing other players than it is chasing flags.

I may not have heard people whine about kill points before, but I have heard people whine about tube whoring. Even though it happens less now (because it's not worth it so much), it still seems to annoy plenty of people. Imagine how much worse it would get if bell-flags were made into the most important part of the scores.

[Tembest]

I may not have heard people whine about kill points before, but I have heard people whine about tube whoring. Even though it happens less now (because it's not worth it so much), it still seems to annoy plenty of people. Imagine how much worse it would get if bell-flags were made into the most important part of the scores.

I know this happens, and it's extremely funny people complain about a losing tactic. With the current scoring system, wasting portals and repellers for tube flags is utterly stupid.
They complain about it because it's boring, that's it. Funny though, how they do not complain when they are instead raped in kills and lose by twice the amount.

Anyway, I will consult more people when I have more time after the holidays and suggest a scoring system. A new scoring system is anyhow relevant only after Ent has
reseted the prac stats. Now the results of pracs do not matter in any way.

[falconeer]

The best way to solve this is to cut it to 120 and run a few practices. Then cut it to 75 and run a few more, and post conclusions and results afterward.

[jim the chin]

I may not have heard people whine about kill points before, but I have heard people whine about tube whoring. Even though it happens less now (because it's not worth it so much), it still seems to annoy plenty of people. Imagine how much worse it would get if bell-flags were made into the most important part of the scores.

I know this happens, and it's extremely funny people complain about a losing tactic. With the current scoring system, wasting portals and repellers for tube flags is utterly stupid.
They complain about it because it's boring, that's it. Funny though, how they do not complain when they are instead raped in kills and lose by twice the amount.

Anyway, I will consult more people when I have more time after the holidays and suggest a scoring system. A new scoring system is anyhow relevant only after Ent has
reseted the prac stats. Now the results of pracs do not matter in any way.

Yes, though the scoring system should be changed before the reset. Otherwise, the first pracs after the reset will still have the current scoring system.

[jim the chin]

The best way to solve this is to cut it to 120 and run a few practices. Then cut it to 75 and run a few more, and post conclusions and results afterward.

If we can get Ent to do that on Sunday when plenty of people are praccing, it sounds like a good idea. Though I'm beginning to think a compromise of 100 is the best bet. Something like this:

Base Kill Value - Reduce to 100 points per kill.
Kill Flag Points - Reduce to 4*flagcount per kill.
Bell Flag Points - Keep at 10 points per flag, per player.

That way, kills are worth 2.5 bell-flags in north, and there's no risk of going below that in other sectors. For the east prac used as an example earlier, this makes kills points worth exactly 50% of all the points (with the other 50% being: bell flags 33%, kill flags 17%). In north, bell flags would be worth more.

[jim the chin]

Remember that east is the sector with the most kills in it too. With what I've just suggested, kill points would come to less than 50% of the total in all the other sectors. In north, points that are solely from bell flags might even surpass kill points (more flags, more multiplication of flag points, and fewer kills per player). So I think this is a perfectly reasonable compromise.

If you made kills points = 75, they'd be pretty negligible in north. In Tembest's theory, that makes them worth 1.875 flags. That's even below what he recommends. Surely we can't have a flat value across all sectors of 75 then? Temb?