Chelsea 3-2 Barcelona (European Football)

[Tembest]

The fact is, Barcelona always has the ball, whether the other team lets them to have it
or not. If the opponent tries to take over possession they fail, and they lose BAD, seen
it so many times.

Chelsea's game plan failed because Barca had 3 empty nets, and 4 breakaways - player
vs Cech. 3 clear goals, and even a bad team scores 50% times when they're 1on1 goalie.
That is "guaranteed 5 goals". In addition, Barca received a penalty, usually one more goal.
Also, Barca hit 2 crossbars and 2 posts. Talk about a succesful gameplan.

There are two reasons for Chelsea going through.
1. Barca was horrible at finishing.
2. The defense made a horrible mistake in Ramires's goal.

Seriously, even Torres said something like "We had the luck on our side. This is how football is
sometimes; even the best team can't always score, and then the other one goes through."

Anyway, it was not any superiority from Chelsea's side as their gameplan failed quite big.
Barcelona just couldn't finish...

[jim the chin]

Ok now I know you're talking bollocks. The Ramires goal was not a "horrible defensive mistake". This reminds me of when you said most goals in the Premier League are down to defensive mistakes. You got some rose-tinted specs on, you see what you want to see. If I looked at the Spanish league I'm sure I could find a defensive mistake as part of every goal. Every player makes mistakes and they make them all the time.

Finishing is a skill, not luck. If they can't finish they don't deserve to win. Chelsea deserved to win.

[Mozart]

Ajax kampioenen!

[Tembest]

Ok now I know you're talking bollocks. The Ramires goal was not a "horrible defensive mistake".

If a player breaks through against 3 defenders, without even dribbling his way past anyone. It is a defensive mistake.
1. Mascherano took a big chance by leaving his spot and aggressively trying to get the ball from Mata and Lampard.
2. Puyol should have either lifted the line sooner, or started running towards own goal right when he saw Ramires started
a run forward. Ramires is 10x faster. However, it was a nice goal, and brilliat finish. Barca is still to blame, even Chelsea
took the chance greatly. Don't take me wrong, it was an amazing performance from Chelsea, they took the advantage of
the first slip Barca made.

This reminds me of when you said most goals in the Premier League are down to defensive mistakes.

I have never said that. I promise. I have said the opposite, I have said that goals are usually not as beautiful in
Premier League because the defense is more intense and there is no room for players to dribble as much etc.
Balls go in from corners and weird balls that bounce of three players, also long shots are quite common. So, I have
definitely not said most goals come from defensive mistakes. This I would have never said. Either you remember wrong,
or have completely misunderstood me but I don't believe I can be misunderstood that horribly.

Finishing is a skill, not luck. If they can't finish they don't deserve to win.

Mostly agree. As I said, Barca did not deserve to go through because they couldn't use their chances.
But you have to admit luck actually plays quite a big role in football. Sometimes bad players shoot perfect shots twice in
a game and score two goals and score none during the rest of the season. While sometimes Gomez, Falcao and Zlatan miss
from 5 meters away even though they are the best finishers in the world. Sometimes the ball bounces off the defenders
back to the top corner, and sometimes somewhere near the goal. Sure luck is involved...

During my football career, I've scored once from 50 meters, I just happened to get the perfect shot in. The goalie wasn't
even too far out. It went right to the very top corner in from the crossbar. I could do that once every 300th shot or
something. It's luck. I've also scored twice straight from corner kick without the ball touching anyone. That's not as much
about luck because I spent loads of time practising that, but still, if the goalie does not make a mistake somewhere there, the
ball shouldn't go in. So, perhaps it's luck.

[jim the chin]

Not much time to reply, but that is rubbish again. Take the Iniesta goal. Three defenders around him, and he didn't have to dribble past anyone either. Why? It's the timing and accuracy of the pass needed to beat the offside trap, NOT dribbling skill. Ramires's goal was as much a mistake as Iniesta's. And how you can describe Mascherano's part as a mistake I don't know. He got outmuscled by Lampard, but he did the right thing trying to pressure him into turning around and slowing the game down. It almost worked, but somehow Lampard saw the pass on.

Anyway, it was as much a mistake as Iniesta's, and like I said, if you call those goals mistakes then you could call every goal a mistake in some way. Every goal can be prevented. A free-kick goal can be prevented by not fouling the player in the first place. There comes a time when you just have to say the other team were extremely skillful to score in those circumstances.

I remember you saying a lot of Premier League goals come from mistakes, compared to Spain (where it's more skillful and doesn't rely on mistakes). You defintely said this, and it even sounds like something you would say, especially after your recent posts about Ramires's goal.

[Tembest]

Not much time to reply, but that is rubbish again. Take the Iniesta goal. Three defenders around him, and he didn't have to dribble past anyone either. Why? It's the timing and accuracy of the pass needed to beat the offside trap, NOT dribbling skill. Ramires's goal was as much a mistake as Iniesta's. And how you can describe Mascherano's part as a mistake I don't know. He got outmuscled by Lampard, but he did the right thing trying to pressure him into turning around and slowing the game down. It almost worked, but somehow Lampard saw the pass on.

Anyway, it was as much a mistake as Iniesta's, and like I said, if you call those goals mistakes then you could call every goal a mistake in some way. Every goal can be prevented. A free-kick goal can be prevented by not fouling the player in the first place. There comes a time when you just have to say the other team were extremely skillful to score in those circumstances.

I'm not going to explain a defensive mistake to you. Once again, read some papers and you'll notice how they talk about
Chelsea taking great advantage over Barca's slip in that goal. Then feel free to argue with the writers, and anyone else
who agrees with me. Because as much as I like debating, I don't really want to talk about this game anymore.
I didn't want to reply anything in the first place... but because of too many emotions attached, I couldn't help myself.
Now, I'm done.

I remember you saying a lot of Premier League goals come from mistakes, compared to Spain (where it's more skillful and doesn't rely on mistakes). You defintely said this, and it even sounds like something you would say, especially after your recent posts about Ramires's goal.

Sorry man, but I believe I remember what I've said, or meant better than you do. Especially when I have never in my life
even thought that way. I can't understand why would I ever have said anything totally against my thinking?

Probably you're just remembering a bit wrongly. I said the goals are often more beautiful due to better ball control and dribbling skills,
and the fact in Latin leagues you see more 1 on 1 challenging. That was what were arguing about back then... How I called the
goals in England often "lucky", and later on we agreed that "lucky" was a bad word, and then I explained what I meant: How they
seem that way due to more intense team defense and better organised game in England.

If you still remember it differently it's ok. But I can say that I have never even thought in the way you suggest, and I'm not the kind
of guy who just says random stuff without meaning or with the purpose of annoying people. So, I'm not going to debate over what
we have discussed in the past.

PS. Guardiola announced his sabbatical from football just a while ago, and that Tito Vilanova will be his successor.
I don't know what to think...

[jim the chin]

I'm not going to explain a defensive mistake to you. Once again, read some papers and you'll notice how they talk about
Chelsea taking great advantage over Barca's slip in that goal. Then feel free to argue with the writers, and anyone else
who agrees with me. Because as much as I like debating, I don't really want to talk about this game anymore.
I didn't want to reply anything in the first place... but because of too many emotions attached, I couldn't help myself.
Now, I'm done.

You could equally say that Barcelona took advantage of Chelsea's slips. First, Busquets should have been marked in the box. There were two players free to tap it in, that's a defensive slip isn't it? Second Iniesta timed his run well, but the defender nearest him was trying to play him offside by pushing out. He pushed out at the wrong time and was caught going in the wrong direction, that's a defensive slip isn't it?

Conversely, you could say that Barcelona overloaded Chelsea for the first goal by getting too many players in the box and drawing the defenders out of position. You could say that Messi timed his pass for the second goal perfectly. Just like you could say Lampard out-muscled Mascherano, and played a wonderful, well-timed pass to Ramires who timed his run perfectly.

So, as I've been trying to say, it's all in the perspective you take. You can read as many biased newspapers as you think you need to support your opinion. I only ask that you be objective.

How I called the
goals in England often "lucky", and later on we agreed that "lucky" was a bad word, and then I explained what I meant: How they
seem that way due to more intense team defense and better organised game in England.

If you still remember it differently it's ok. But I can say that I have never even thought in the way you suggest, and I'm not the kind
of guy who just says random stuff without meaning or with the purpose of annoying people. So, I'm not going to debate over what
we have discussed in the past.

That's what I remember precisely. In justifying your intital claim that English goals are "lucky" you used the argument that many are down to defensive mistakes. I could quote you if the old forum was available. Even though you recanted your claim, I brought it up because you seem to be doing the same here with Ramires: taking a biased view of a goal by an English team by saying it was lucky and down to a defensive mistake.

[Tuhnukki]

Oh well, now at least Bayern has an easy home win now.

Lol at claiming that Chelsea deserved to go trough. On the other hand, it doesn't matter who deserved to go trough, but with the way they played, they would lose to Barca 6/10, draw 2/10 and win 2/10.

[jim the chin]

Yup, come on Bayern!

And yes, Barca were certainly favorites, and showed more passing ability on the pitch. Good thing Chelsea knew how to counter Barcelona's strengths and prey on their weaknesses. A good game plan indeed!

[Tembest]

I only ask that you be objective.

It's not just me. The reason we are often debating is because of you being an Englishman
and a Gunners fan, while I support a Spanish team from all my heart.

That's the reason I don't want to discuss the matter anymore. No matter how objective
perspective you claim to have, it's not. I always try to be objective, but I know I sub-
consciously can't do that.